[neverVC]

Very sleepy so I am going to make a quick post.  Will resume when time permits.

Here is Romans 3:23 in full.  

Like a text in a book, not all can read/see/understand it the same way.  Just as millions of us have walked this earth for centuries until Newton discovered gravity  :face-with-tears-of-joy4:.

The same scripture is read but can be interpreted very differently by different peoples.  Unlike an algebra equation where everyone can come to the same answer of 2+2 =4, a Scripture needs not only an IQ but also a heart pure of love and free from prejudices.

TV keeps claiming that CG so blind just only follow what the priests or GH tells them.  News flash, we all start out with some kind of guidance; tell me how did you become TL?  Did you come up with inquiry about this Scripture on your own?  Or were you 'guided' by someone to it?  And what make you so sure that they 'guide' you to the right path?  After all, they are HUMANS too, full of sin, and fallible too just as you and I.

Anyway, here is Roman 3:23 and I will present my interpretation of it.

--
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

[tuyetvan]

So what do you think this verse means?

Be straightforward and ... short please

[neverVC]

Your argument is that because Rom 3:23 states that 'for all have sinned and come short in the glory of God' that means Mary has sinned as well since Mary is human like you and me therefore also 'co toi'.

I asked you then,

1-  Do you think that refers to the original sin or personal sin?

2-  If you literally take it as that ALL men are sinners, then 'logically' by that reasoning are you saying that includes Jesus Christ, also in human form, is also a sinner?

--------------

You answered,

1. i think it refers to both ... original sin and personal sin ... Agree ?

2. According to the Bible, Jesus didn't sin

But the Bible didn't say whatsoever that Mary didn't sin ... Agree ??


2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


3. I showed you the verse to prove that Jesus didn't sin, now it's your turn to show me the verse saying that Mary didn't sin . Fair enough?  
---------------------

1- 'For all have sinned'==> Action, referring to personal sin.


But 'original sin', we are BORN WITH.

Ìf you literally insist that 'for all have sinned' means that Mary, a human just like you and I, must then have sinned too.  By that reasoning, then Jesus Christ, in human form must have sinned too.  No ễxception.  Can you say Jesus Christ as a human has sinned too?

No, you then showed another verse to prove Jesus did not sin.  Ah, so you agree that the Bible must be read as a whole, not a single sentence cherry picked to fit  or morphed into YOUR understanding or view.  

Ah, but when others show other verses, you insist that they ẽxplain that one sentence you picked only.  

So now we're onto that 'other verse' (BTW, thêre are more than one, just be patient  )

"And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God." (Luke 1:28-30)"

Umh... what do you think of the title 'FULL of GRACE' bestowed on Mary?

Ìf the Son of God incarnate to become Son of Man as Jesus Christ, how would he be born without the original sin if she who bore him is with original sin?  So go back and reflect on 'FULL of GRACE' once more.  I'll wait to hear your 'interpretation' first..

[tuyetvan]

How i became a Christian is a long story. I am not here to talk about it. 

Catholic has a different view of Mary. I just want to see where they got that view from? The Scriptures or the people? 

If they can prove they got it from the Scriptures, i promise that i won't bug them again. 

However if they got it from the people, they have to think about it. Because people are not God, and vice versa, God is not people

[tuyetvan]

Ok, i don't want to talk about personal or original sin. We'll can talk about that later.

At this stage, i just want you to give me the verse that says Mary was not a sinner, please 

I already gave you the verse saying Jesus isn't a sinner. 

Now it's your turn

[tuyetvan]

After you give me the verse saying Mary was not a sinner. Then we can start talking about the original or personal sin that Mary didn't have 

Ok?

[Anh_Điếc]

Trong Tin Mừng của (Gioan:13, 35) Chúa Giêsu nói thế này:

35 Mọi người sẽ nhận biết anh em là môn đệ của Thầy ở điểm này: là anh em có lòng yêu thương nhau."


Qua nhận xét về nick Tuyết Vân theo giáo phái Tin Lành, một nick không mấy xa lạ từ bên Tìm Hiểu Tôn Giáo Vietfun qua đến Vietbest, đi tới đâu Tuyết Vân cũng chỉ với MỤC ĐÍCH gây thù, chuốc oán, từ những nicks vô thần cho đến những người đạo Phật, đạo Công Giáo và các thành viên Vf và Vb đều ngán ngẫm cách nói chuyện của Tuyết Vân và hầu như mọi người ai ai cũng tìm cách xa lánh Tuyết Vân . (kể cả Ban Điều Hành Vietbest)

Vậy xin hỏi Tuyết Vân, đoạn Kinh Thánh trên đây Tuyết Vân đã xứng đáng là MÔN ĐỆ của Chúa Giêsu chưa ?

ĐỘNG NÃO!!!

[tuyetvan]

Pick a good verse that can convince me ... Mary wasn't a sinner. Then we'll see which sin it meant, original or personal?  :cool:

[neverVC]

How i became a Christian is a long story. I am not here to talk about it. 

Catholic has a different view of Mary. I just want to see where they got that view from? The Scriptures or the people? 

If they can prove they got it from the Scriptures, i promise that i won't bug them again. 

However if they got it from the people, they have to think about it. Because people are not God, and vice versa, God is not people.

---------
I did not want to ask about your life and how you became a Christian.

I said that we all started out with some kind of guidance, all from or by other humans.

I also said we can all read/understand/'feel' or interpret that Scriptures very differently.  The ones who 'guided' you may see it very differently from the ones who guided us.  The truth is not always be 'seen' by the naked eyes but must be 'felt' or 'shone' upon us by His grace.

By your reasoning (must be written down in the Scriptures), I guess all Americans can have as many abortions as they wish because it is NOT written down anywhere in the Constitution.  Or presidents who want to be president for life can claim that it was never written down in the Constitution until 'other peoples' added 'term limit' in there?

Your logic is too weak.

[Đạo là gì ?]

Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

(Romans 7:7-13)




Vai trò của Lề Luật

7 Vậy phải nói sao? Lề Luật là tội chăng? Không phải thế! Nhưng tôi đã chẳng biết tội là gì nếu không có Lề Luật. Thật vậy, tôi đã chẳng biết ham muốn là gì, nếu Luật không dạy: Ngươi không được ham muốn.8 Tội đã thừa cơ, dùng điều răn mà làm nảy sinh trong tôi đủ thứ ham muốn. Thật vậy, không có Lề Luật thì tội đã chết rồi.

9 Xưa kia, không có Luật thì tôi sống; nhưng từ khi có điều răn thì tội bắt đầu sống,10 còn tôi thì chết. Thành thử điều răn lẽ ra phải đưa đến sự sống, lại dẫn tôi đến chỗ chết.11 Quả thế, tội đã thừa cơ, dùng điều răn để quyến rũ tôi và cũng dùng điều răn đó để giết tôi.

12 Như vậy, Lề Luật là thánh, và điều răn cũng là thánh, đúng và tốt.13 Vậy phải chăng điều tốt lại đã gây nên cái chết cho tôi? Không phải thế! Nhưng chính tội đã dùng điều tốt mà gây nên cái chết cho tôi: như vậy, tội để lộ chân tướng và cho thấy tất cả sức mạnh tội lỗi của nó.

(Rm 7, 7-13)

[tuyetvan]

I don't care about being logical or not

All i care now is the verse saying Mary wasn't a sinner 

Can you show me that verse, or no?

[tuyetvan]

Your post seems to be too long. Honestly, i am not good at reading long posts.

So can you make it short and be straight to the point. Otherwise, i won't read it

[Cá hồi]

I can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible, but people keep using it. 

[tuyetvan]

Can i talk to one person at a time?

Cá hồi please wait until i am done with this person. Wait for your turn, be patient

[tuyetvan]

Back to nevervc.

Answer me in short... Can you show me the verse saying Mary was not a sinner?

I want a biblical proof, i don't want to see mr. A says this or mrs. B says that

In that case, how do i know who is right? Mr. A or Mrs. B?